Chris Bernard  July 14, 2007 

ERICA: This is The BusinessMakers Show heard on talk radio 950 KPRC and on the web at the businessmakers.com.  This is Erica O’Grady and I’m here with Chicago-based User Experience Evangelist, Chris Bernard from Microsoft.  Hi Chris.  Thanks for being here. 

CHRIS: Hi, how are you?  Thanks for having me. 

ERICA: I’m doing great.  So tell me, what exactly is a User Experience Evangelist? 

CHRIS: I would say we’re still trying to figure that out in Microsoft,  but really my role is  to kind of be an evangelist for design.  And I do that both internally in Microsoft, and I do it externally with a lot of people that use our technology, and then more importantly I’m kind of an advocate for our profession as well.  Now, obviously, I focus more in the world of software around user experience and interaction design, but —when companies as big and as relevant as Microsoft are paying attention to design I think it’s really important that they engage and interact with the community and try to elevate the entire profession too.

ERICA: Now, Microsoft has spent a lot of time in the space of developer evangelist, going out to the community and talking to the programmers. 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh (Affirmative). 

ERICA: But you were actually the very first User Experience Evangelist in the United States. 

CHRIS: That’s true.  I am the first person in the U.S., but I collaborate with people all around the world that do the same job that I do too. 

ERICA: When you think great design, you don’t usually think Microsoft; you usually think Apple. 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh (Affirmative). 

ERICA: So what is Microsoft doing right now to change that perception? 

CHRIS: Sure.  Well, I think the first thing that Microsoft is doing isyou can look at our own products that we design today, and if you look at some of the work that has gone into Vista in terms of the experience and in terms of the services that we integrate and just the installation process and everything else, we’ve worked really hard to bring more simplicity to the experience of using Windows.  I think if you look at some of our other software, such as our Productivity Suite and Office 2007,—you know—we inarguably take in the biggest most successful piece of commercial software, and we started from zero with the interface, and I think those are fascinating and exciting stories as a designer because you got to ask yourself well, how did Microsoft decide to start over with that interface?  And why did they decide it was important?  So I think one way you do it is you have to walk the walk, and I think Microsoft is working really hard to actually walk that walk with design.  I think when we look at some next generation computing platforms like what Surface can offer us I think we put a lot of thought into looking how end-users can apply things versus just developing technology for technology sake or just—designing software that’s good enough versus good or great or insanely great. 

ERICA:  So what’s the feedback from the community been like after the redesign of the 2007 Office? 

CHRIS: Sure. any time you do something as radical as what we did in Office 2007 you're going to get a variety of feedback, and to put a little perspective and balance on this—there’s probably —well in excess of 350 million to 500 million users of Office all around the world, so if I make 1 tiny mistake, I still make millions of people mad with that interface; but in general we found that most users think it’s the best software Microsoft has ever created.  And I think from my peers in the design community they think it may be the best effort we’ve ever put into designing a piece of software.  And the challenge we have is we have a lot of ingrained habits. We have a lot of things where Office got complex over time.  If you look at—the number of menu items when Word was first released, it was 50 when it came out.  In 2003 it was in excess of 270, so —that became unmanageable.  we had 2 toolbars when Word came out.  It had over 30—in 2003. we had these task panels that would actually pop up on the right side of the screen, and  I think we started with 46 of those—right when we introduced that feature for 2003.  So there’s a lot of challenges with that interface and it became more about—you know—let’s surface all this great functionality in the tool to users, because we started finding that people would ask well it would be great if the tool could do this, or it would be great if the tool could do that, and we kind of realized well——we’ve been doing that in the tool for 3 years; just no one can figure out how to do it. So we had to remove complexity from the application, but we had to kind of keep it there, right, because the 20% of the features that you use are very different from the 20% that someone else might use, so we couldn’t really take anything out.  And I think the ribbon interface really let us contextually  give people the functionality they needed when they're doing a specific task. The other thing that we did is we actually made complex applications simpler by having real-time previews in the tool, so a lot of really complex interactions that—would have been unthinkable to do—in the Office Suite a year ago are really easy for anybody to do right now, and you can actually see exactly what’s going to happen before you have to commit to it; so I think that’s another thing that we did.  And then I think we acknowledged some of the realities of computing. one of the things we talk about a lot in interface design is Fitz’ Law, which comes from Paul Fitz who was a cognitive psychologist in Ohio State, I think, in the 40s or 50s, and he did a lot with cockpit design.  And obviously that’s pretty serious business.  If you make a mistake there, people die, right?  But it translates a lot to software too, and—one of the biggest things that he learned is—the farther away things are, the harder they are to click; and the smaller they are, they harder they are to click too.  And if you just look at the evolution of all software over the past 20 years if software had never changed, it would still be harder to use, right, because our displays have higher density.  —we’re not 600 x 400 pixels anymore.  You know—it’s standard … we have a monitor——that is——1850 by 1020 pixels or 1050 so our software has gotten very complex, right?  And the whole way we design it hasn’t changed a lot over time.  So I think some of the things we did in Office was we tried to make it easier, and we kind of acknowledged—that we work with different interfaces now.  So—the last thing we did with office is we also put context around tools, so in Word or Excel if you're editing a piece of type, we have a little popup menus that will be right there, so if you want to change the formatting—you're not mousing over—10 inches of real estate to go get to the button to make things work.  But it’s uh probably—the long-winded answer here, but it’s probably I think the most successful user interface design that Microsoft has ever done. 

ERICA:  So what are the stats?  How many companies and small businesses actually use the Office Suite? 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh (Affirmative).  I’m not sure that I know the answer to that question right now.  I think—the challenge that we have with all software right now is how productive can you be in it, and—you reach a point where complexity can impede your productivity.  but then we also reach a point where not having a enough features can impede your productivity too, so I think the challenge right now is to understand where is the sweet spot for small businesses in terms of the applications that they use; and in Microsoft where we’ve really found, and I think a lot of data from our peers really bears out, is that we confuse simplicity often with—not too many features, and that’s a dangerous way to be, because most consumers—like very rich—products.  They like feature rich products.  The challenges is when you have a lot of features, and people can’t figure out how to use them; so when we think of simplicity, we really think of simplicity around making it easier for people to use those products or making it easier to integrate and use them together.  one of the biggest challenges that we’re working with right now is what happens with online apps when you don’t have connectivity?  Right?  And sometimes in the U.S.—we get a little biased in our world of always-on connectivity and—there’s obviously other countries in Europe and Asia where—we have the same phenomena, but it just doesn’t exist in the rest of the world. So I think the challenge for small business is understanding—where is that line—between the disconnected app and connected application. 

ERICA:  Okay great.  This is The BusinessMakers Show heard on talk radio 950 KPRC and brought to you by Comerica Bank.  

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ERICA:  This is The BusinessMakers Show heard on talk radio 950 KPRC and on the web at the businessmakers.com.  I’m back with my guest, User Experience Evangelist Chris Bernard from Microsoft.  Welcome back. 

CHRIS: Thanks. 

ERICA:  Okay,  Let’s talk a little bit about Microsoft Surface. 

CHRIS: Okay. 

ERICA: This really big hot news right now.  It’s uh coming about the same time the iPhone is being released.  Uh what is Microsoft Surface?  And why should small businesses care about it? 

CHRIS: Sure.  Well, Microsoft Surface—is really an attempt at looking at where the future of computing is going to go.  And—one of the things I did before I came into Microsoft is sat around with a couple of my colleagues that I was going to work with in Microsoft and—there’s certain things that we like and that we aspire to, so—we always like to flip on Minority Report and look at the interface that Tom Cruise uses in the movie and even bad movies like the Island you know; or you look at a move like Brazil. 

ERICA: I liked the Island. 

CHRIS: technology was used, yeah.  And but you look at computing interfaces and you realize that we want to get away from the metaphor of the desktop or the laptop, and the laptops if you're in technology they're a very prevailing part of our life right now, and they're probably always going to be, but we want to get into other experiences and—and Surface really represents the—the culmination of years of effort that I think started back in about 2001 and naturally build off  a lot of our tablet computing and digital inking initiatives to think of other metaphors that people are going to compute in, and uh I think a lot of that input came uh from different directions.  Certainly some of it came from work that people outside of Microsoft were doing.  Some of it came from uh work from folks that have come into Microsoft over time, but probably the most notable being Bill Buxton who came in to Microsoft Research, and I think some of it just came out of our own work and experience in research.  at Microsoft in Redmond we actually have a home of the future where we actually prototype a lot of new technology, and—one of the things we see in the future is well, what if the wall in your bedroom is just a giant display—that you can configure?  Or what if when you walk into your house instead of a thermostat, an image just appears on the wall that you can manipulate?   And all of these ideas really pushed us towards the commercialization of a product or service, and that’s really what Surface computing became, so I think the form factors are going to evolve over time. but this was really our first attempt to get something accessible that a market can take advantage of.  I think for the small business it’s probably not ready right now.  I mean, it’s still kind of an expensive thing to get your head around, but still— 

ERICA: what is the cost of Surface? 

CHRIS: we haven’t announced official pricing yet, but they're—going to hit anywhere from $5-10,000 out there, and right now they're kind of in a closed alpha right now with customers that we’re working with, and I think what consumers are going to see and people that are excited about Surface is they're going to see Surface applied in a lot of commercial environments over the next 12 months— 

ERICA: —so who are some of the first customers who are going to get access to this? 

CHRIS: Well, some of the customers we’re working with are casinos, like Harrah’s. 

ERICA: Oh, wow. 

CHRIS: There are retail operations so uh—you know—I think some of the people have seen samples.  You know—when we look at product selection and comparison, I think you’ll see some mobile phone uh sellers actually building kiosks with that, so— 

ERICA: —how are casinos using this? 

CHRIS: I think the better way to phrase that is how uhm how are casinos not using it, right, because there’s so much flexibility in that environment for what they do there's so much potential for just imbedding devices with objects so you can actually interact with the table we have examples where—you can put a cell phone on a table and it’ll fan out all the pictures that are on your cell phone so you can share and look at them with people. I mean, the sky’s the limit I think in a lot of the ways that it can be used in the casino.  I think you’ll find some upscale hotels using it in entertainment environments and also for checking a kiosk and information in way finding, so uh I think that probably the most pervasive areas we’re going to see it is in a lot in digital signage, in interactive media and advertising, and I think you’ll see it in some major retailers too over the next 12 months. 

ERICA: How many restaurants do you think will have this as like the tables when you walk in? 

CHRIS: You know—I don’t know and from an experience perspective as a designer——there’s a whole bunch of wonderful ways you could use surface and there's a whole bunch of scary ways you can use it too, right?  just like there’s kind of—you know—the blinking text of html. I don’t know what the blinking text of Surface is going to be yet, and maybe that’s that we don’t interact with anybody in our tables anymore.  We want to avoid that and that’s why we’re working very carefully with partners to really figure out what are the positive connective experiences that we can develop with people with Surface computing. 

ERICA:  You guys are also kind of launching your own version of like an online connectivity suite.  How is that going? 

CHRIS: I think the division that we—see for Office and all of our software and services is something that Ray Ozzie often refers to as software and a service, right?  So I don’t think that people are going to live exclusively in the world of web applications.  I don’t think they're going to live exclusively in the world of desktop software.  I think there’s always going to be that fuzzy ground in between, and I think that the most productivity for most users is going to—come from that hybrid environment that they exist in.  but in terms of small businesses I would say—they're a very important customer to Microsoft.  You know—if you look at the ma and pop developer and the ma and pop small business, these are incredibly important customers to us so we want to make sure as the world changes and evolves—that we’re offering—solutions that are relevant and affordable to them, and I think you’ll see the online component, the live services component of Office  become much more important to that equation than it possibly was in the past. 

RUSS:   You’re listening to The BusinessMakers Show, heard on Talk Radio 950, KPRC and online at The BusinessMakers.com.   

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ERICA:   This is the Business Makers Show heard on Talk Radio 950 KPRC and on the web at businessmakers.com.  I’m back with Chris Bernard from Microsoft and we’re going to talk a little bit about how Microsoft has become involved in the open source community.  Let’s start with something I’m really familiar with, which is Barcamp. 

CHRIS: Okay. 

ERICA: Barcamp is an adhoc technology unconference— 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh. 

ERICA: --which is hard for people to understand if they’ve never been to one.  But basically it means that you come to a conference, like a traditional conference, there’s lots of people there, but instead of having a set schedule, the schedule is set by the attendees.  And everybody participates.  It’s not just a bunch of spectators listening to a bunch of speakers, who are flown in from all over the world, to speak.  It’s everybody speaking, and everyone learning, and everyone teaching. 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh. 

ERICA: Microsoft in the last year and a half, because Barcamp is a very new movement— 

CHRIS: Right. 

ERICA: --has played a very large role in the success of several Barcamps across the country.  Maybe even across the world, I’m not sure what they’ve done outside of the United States.  But I know from my end, that they’ve sponsored things like Barcamp Dallas, Barcamp SanFrancisco— 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh. 

ERICA: --they’ve spent quite a bit of money— 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh. 

ERICA: --to come in to this open source community.  Why?  What’s the benefit? 

CHRIS: Well, I think—the first thing we need to acknowledge is that the community that uses technology—has said loudly and clear, that they want a world of choice, and they want a choice of using for profit software, and open source software, and free software, and they want the ability to have it work together effectively.  So—a very pragmatic response to this is—we always care about satisfying the needs of our customers, and our customers are at Barcamp.  And we want to have that be a forum where we can engage with them and have—two way conversations, and get feedback, and actually take it back and—and actually use it.  So—so I think at its most basic level—we care about that dialogue right now.  And we truly care about inner operability.  We want people to successfully be able to use our technology with other technology to, and—the market has dictated that’s what they want too.  And we want what the market wants, to be successful. 

ERICA:  And to that end it’s really interesting.  I—I see you have a Toshiba laptop here— 

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh. 

ERICA: - but you also have a Mac. 

CHRIS: I do. 

ERICA: You love your Mac and you said that Windows Ultimate actually runs better—um—than it does on a PC and a Mac. 

CHRIS: —I think in certain configurations it does.  And—you know—we have to  acknowledge that a big segment of our audience that I care about:  professional designers, often work exclusively on a Mac right now.  And—I think one of the great things about Mac going to Intel is whatever a designer works on, the majority of the consumers they’re designing for are always going to be looking at it on Windows XP, or looking at it on Vista.  So—as an example—I think Vista shipped in January-- If you look at adoption rates, there’s already—way more people running Vista than OS10 right now.  So I--I think—it’s important to understand different platforms and how important they are, and when you look at technology like Silverlight, and the fact that it runs on both a Mac and a PC now, and it runs equally well on all the browsers, I mean I think that’s incredibly important.  But—I also think it’s important that we just understand that we have different ecosystems out there that we need to cater too.  And from a market perspective, Microsoft is a very pragmatic company, if it’s something we feel our customers want or need, I mean, we’re going to do it.  And we really saw a need in our offering space to offer an ability for all the people who use our technology, to create experiences that can be enjoyed on other platforms.  And vice versa—you know—we need people that may be exclusively designing other platforms, we need to give them a set of tools so that they can come in and contribute effectively to our platform too.  So I do think that’s important, and that’s kind of tangential to openness, right? 

ERICA: Right. 

CHRIS: we go out and engage where the community is, and we invite that community in to a lot of the conversations that we have.  one of the conferences--we do mix in Las Vegas—we had a whole panel set up on a open source, right?   And we had numerous panels set up on design, and social media to actually have that conversation about how we work.  So, again, I think Microsoft’s success if really about the fact that we cater to the needs of our customers and our partners.  And we look for any forum where we can take advantage of that. 

ERICA: And you’re really kind of pushing the limits and stepping out on to the cutting edge.  You’re embracing things like micro formats that are really popular in open source community.  but some of the other things that you’re doing, is you’re really opening up a dialogue. 

CHRIS: Absolutely. 

ERICA: -this is something that’s pretty new for Microsoft, to be as open as it is.  You have things like Channel 9, and you have people that were famous bloggers like Scobel, who went on to do other things.  What was the impact of that sort of— 

CHRIS: Sure. 

ERICA: --openness. 

CHRIS: Well, I think—I think people really underestimate the impact of two things: One is—the impact that Channel 9 had.  —Channel 9 was an experiment that was wildly successful.  Took a lot of innovation-- 

ERICA: --tell anyone that doesn’t know what is Channel 9. 

CHRIS: Channel 9 is actually  a mechanism that we have, and I think if you just—Windows Live Search on Channel 9—you can actually find that you are all for it.  But it is kind of U-tube for everything that Microsoft does.  And—it started around 5 years ago, when we really first started using it, and if you want to know what the heck Microsoft was thinking when we did something?  Changes are there is a video and an interview with the project manager or the software engineer that invented it that lives on that site.  And I believe Scott Sanquist came up this—it was born out of his fear of flying, and how he would always reassure himself when he’d fly, by listening to Channel 9 in the airplane seat.  You know—where the cockpit chatter would be there and it would reassure him, and—you know—the whole goal of Channel 9 at Microsoft is to tell you, “Here’s what we’re thinking and what we’re doing.”  And to kind of have that dialogue, and have people be able to comment on it.  And it was really ahead of it’s time when it happened.  I mean, we’re talking—you know—this phenomenon really occurred 2 or 3 years before it occurred in the world of Web2O.  

And I think the second thing that matters is the voice of the individual became really important, and—we and a lot of other companies really owe a debt to Robert Scobel for that.  He was one of the first guys that really broke through and kind of became that humanness and that voice— 

ERICA: Very candidly. 

CHRIS: --and he brought a human voice.   Very candidly, yes.  And—we got 4,000 other people that do that now too, for Microsoft, and I have never, ever seen a company as big as Microsoft that embraces that kind of culture——more than Microsoft.  I mean, that was another eye opener to me—in terms of—you’re not expected to blog, but it’s kind of like you have to—you almost have to, to succeed in Microsoft right now.  And you have to have those muscles and that ability to kind of do that right now.  And—I think that might be the future that all of us are going to be looking at right now—that ability to communicate and have your voice and know how to project it—in that on-line world is going to be really important.  And I think that’s why you see—in the world of blogging, why it’s such a phenomenon.  You know, everybody thought, “Oh, it’s the CB radio.”  the 21^st Centuriers, or something like that.  And I think it’s a--  much more profound and pervasive of that.  And as a big company, I think you have to embrace it.  So—the fact that like—when Bill’s going to retire —Scobel gets that interview that day and—we put it up on Channel 9 and there’s that transparency—I think it’s incredibly important, and I think it does humanize a lot of the decisions Microsoft makes.  And—and again— our real goal was—in our hearts we really want to do right by our customers, right?  That’s how we make our money, that’s how we make people happy and—we have shareholders, we have employees, and we have customers that we want to make happy, and that community that plays in that space, we want to make sure that we understand what they want, and there’s a number of way to do that.  One is transparency and openness and going outside of our traditional conferences.  The other one is having conversations and inviting feedback—candid open feedback about what we do.  And—I think any company—needs to be thinking carefully about doing that if they want to succeed and be viable in the future. 

RUSS: This is The BusinessMakers Show heard on Talk Radio 950 KPRC and online at the BusinessMakers.com.  

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ERICA:  This is the BusinessMakers Show heard on Talk Radio 950 KPRC and on line at the BusinessMakers.com.   Speaking of that there’s been a lot of changes in the last couple of years at Microsoft—Bill Gates is no longer the CEO. 

CHRIS: Sure. 

ERICA: We now have Ray Ozzie.   

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh (Affirmative). 

ERICA: - the company is kind of changing its focus and looking at a lot of different things.   

CHRIS: Uh-Hunh (Affirmative).  Microsoft in its heart is a platform company.  I think any company in the technology business—aspires to be a platform company, and when you're a platform company, you need to have offerings across a spectrum that a customer take advantage of.  And in the open world of the web and the internet and the network, you need to have interoperability between your platform and other platforms, and I think that’s also what motivates our push in all these different directions. --often people ask well, how can any company like Microsoft—be in so many businesses, and the reality is is that any company that wants to be a platform company needs to have a presence in the mobile space.  They need to have a presence in the living room.  They need to have a presence in the office.  They need to have a presence online.  They heed to have something that can be there, because that’s what a platform is all about, the touch points in that platform; and I think you’ll see Microsoft and any company that considers them self viable in that space to all be exploring ways to do that, either on their own or through acquisitions or through partnerships.  And it is this platform that small businesses need to pay attention to, because it is a great force multiplier for what you can do.  I mean, if we look back—5 or 6 years ago and what it would have taken to have a blog on your site—I mean, look at what 1 individual can do right now with a blog.  Look at what they can do with an ad supported blog.  Look at what they can do with streaming media services on that blog or podcast.  I mean, there's this wonderful ecosystem that exists for small businesses to take advantage of, and I think the battle in the future is there's going to be a lot of companies vying for that, right, that are going to want to offer that platform to people that they can use.  So I think you're still going to see a very big push in that direction, and you're going to be in expectation that there’s competence across different platforms.  So when we look at Xbox Live and gaming, right, that is a whole part of our platform.  When we look at Windows Mobile, that’s a part of a platform.  When we look at media center or IPTV these are all part of our platform.  What happens when you're going to read the New York Times in your living room?  It’s coming.  That’s what people are going to do.  What happens when you buy movie tickets in your living room?  Or you want to listen to your music collection through your home stereo?  Or you’re in a hotel, and you want to access your music collection at home?  —these are all scenarios that we’re going to exist in, and then what happens when your coffee table is a place where you can keep all your pictures and show them to everybody too?  So I think that’s really what’s motivated the growth, is that we live in a world where we’ve always cared about user experience in a physical sense, right.  If you go into a hotel, there's a whole engineered experience for that hotel.  If you go buy a car, there's an engineered experience for that.  If you go into a retailer, there's an experience; and software traditionally in technology has always been weak in that area, and we can’t afford to be weak anymore, because we are the companies.  We are the glue that hold all those experiences together right now.  So I think that’s the really big motivation that you’ve seen from Microsoft to go in this direction.  And we’ll always be a technology and engineering company at heart, but quite frankly that culture has to have one of design and a soul and emotion right now too.  And I think that’s why Microsoft is going down this path. 

ERICA:  Wonderful.  —So what do you think the future of Microsoft is going to be? 

ERICA: 10 years down the road? 

CHRIS: Sure.  I think—the desirable future for Microsoft is—a transition and an evolution now like a lot of big established companies——that kind of hit——their 30 year mark like Microsoft has recently.  And—I think Microsoft is going to——hopefully evolve into a company that’s like a GE of computing, right?  You now—they are a company that is in a number of businesses that are connected and important.  Probably even more connected than GE’s businesses are.  And—we want to be a top competitor in every business that we’re in.  So we want to be a top 1 or 2 competitor, and offer something compelling and valuable for people to use us.  And—I think that’s the desire of Microsoft, is to be that.  And to still——have that sense of wonder and social responsibility that Microsoft has been built on.  You know—personally—we talk about “Well, why did you come to Microsoft?”  I think the other thing that’s interesting about Microsoft is what some of the people do when they leave Microsoft, right?  So if you look at the Bill Gates Foundation, and you look at some of the things that Warren Buffet has done, and you look at numerous other individuals and what they’ve done in terms of giving back to the community, or if you look at what Microsoft does—you know—in developing countries in terms of what it’s trying to do with it’s software—I mean these are all the other things I see too.  So I see us becoming——much more socially responsible as we get bigger—and I see that being a kind of a part of our DNA, and our culture too, that I think is going to get more pervasive over time.  And—you know—there’s some things that haven’t even played out yet around that, so when we start talking about sustainability, I think we’re going to see a whole lot of trends that technology companies are going to embrace.  And I expect Microsoft to be one of the leaders—in doing that too. 

ERICA: And when you mention sustainability, you mean whatever’s good for the environment and the Earth? 

CHRIS: You know—there’s—there’s— 

ERICA:  Looking forward to future generations. 

CHRIS: Right.  There’s a couple of ways to look at it:  One’s more pragmatic like are we going to build things that—are good, and that we can care and feed for—you know—from a technology perspective.  But you know the other side is—what’s the economic and environmental impact of all the data centers that we have?  —what’s the economic environmental impact of all of the computers——that go into landfills every year versus how they can be reused and recycled, and I think this is all something that—we’re not measure on right now.  Right?  But—ah—what we get measured on is technology, so it’s probably going to shift over the next 5 years and I expect companies like Microsoft, or—you know—spend a lot of time trying to shape that conversation in a constructive way that’s good for everybody. 

RUSS: That wraps up the radio broadcast with Erica O’Grady and Chris Bernard.  However, there’s more of this discussion at TheBusinessMakers.com where Erica and Chris continue this interesting discussion as a BusinessMakers WebXTRA. You’ve been listening to the BusinessMakers Show brought to you by Comerica Bank, heard on Talk Radio 950 KPRC and online at The BusinessMakers.com.