Katie: What up to our OT home-spices! You're listening to The BusinessMakers Overtime Show heard here and online at theBusinessMakers.com. We are your glowing and most radiant of hostesses Katie Laird -

Esther: And Esther Steinfeld.

Katie: Coming at ya live from a most interesting small business celebration today.

Esther: That's right! We're here recording onsite at the Primer Grey and co.lab Marketing block party. An open-house celebrating local small businesses in the warehouse district right here in Houston, Texas, and boy, are there some cool folks here tonight. St. Arnold's Brewery, Zenfilm, Last Concert Café, Smart Meals, and of course Support Local Grow Together, the local movement that's supporting all local businesses; and that's only to name a few.

Katie: Yes. So we're celebrating the amazing entrepreneurial spirit that is buzzing around in this wild space today and are filling up today's Chapter 3 special feature with two passionate small local business supports, J.R. Cohen whose voice at this point you should totally recognize from our other shows.

Esther: We've had him on our show several times.

Katie: Yes! He is amazing.

Esther: But he's got some really exciting stuff going on.

Katie: He does. Some great neat stuff and also a new fellow and a beloved fan of the show, Brian Truax. I'm really excited about this.

Esther: Yep. He's a big fan and we're a big fan of him -

Katie: That's right.

Esther: - so we had to have him on.

Katie: That's right. (Laughter) And then in Chapter 2 we've got a great interview with the blazing minds of Primer Grey, a marketing and design company that is really making waves and are also our generous hosts today, so we love 'em. (Laughter)

Esther: That's right. They're boozing us up and they're gonna grace us with an interview.

Katie: And wining and dining and interviewing.

Esther: We like all of those things.

Katie: (Laughter) All of them!

Esther: Interviews and boos and wine and alcohol and -

Katie: Cupcakes.

Esther: We've already had a couple glasses of wine.

Katie: (Laughter)

Esther: Just kidding, we haven't. Of course, we're gonna kick off the show with the business week in review as we always do.

Katie: Yes! Good, good stuff.

Esther: So what's going on?

Katie: So this week we saw an interesting article in the New York Times. It's about the growing concern for unpaid internships.

Esther: Mmm.

Katie: Basically, in my little world internships, unpaid or paid, has always been sort of this sacred cow in my formative high school and college years.

Esther: Oh yeah, I had several that were amazing.

Katie: Honestly, and were they all paid or was some -

Esther: I didn't get paid for a single internship I had.

Katie: Not a single internship.

Esther: No.

Katie: Okay, well -

Esther: I got paid in college credit, does that count as getting paid? (Laughter)

Katie: No, you know, that kind of, sort of does, but the Labor Department is flipping out right now because as the economy's been a little rough lately, they're seeing a lot of business, small, medium, and large replacing full-time paid workers with unpaid interns -

Esther: Ooooh!

Katie: - which is illegal, and I'm sorry, that's just wrong!

Esther: Yeah, it's really bad.

Katie: Give me a break! Give me a break.

Esther: Internships are suppose to teach you how to be in business, not necessarily make you take on the responsibility of a full-time employee.

Katie: Exactly, exactly. Provide that, you know, insight into a potential career path or give you some good work experience for your resume. And actually, things have changed a lot in the internship world. A study back in '08 showed that 83 percent of college graduates, 83 graduated with an internship during college, and this up from only 9 percent in 1992.

Esther: Wow.

Katie: So I mean, internships are - I mean that's really how it's going down, you know.

Esther: Yep, and you guys have interns.

Katie: We do. At Schipul we do but we pay them and it's been sort of an internal battle. Like paid, unpaid - paid, unpaid but -

Esther: We also pay our interns.

Katie: Do you? Okay, and a lot of it is just that we are trying to be very, very above board and very wary of the fact that I mean there are some government forces that whether or not we're given college credit, whether or not, you know, they're really receiving a lot of value, honestly, we just don't wanna have to deal with the concern of, "Are we doing the right thing?"

Esther: I think it's also when you hire somebody, whether they're an intern or an employee, I mean they have skill. You wouldn't hire an intern that wasn't skilled.

Katie: No!

Esther: I mean they might be in college or they might be, you know, just a very new, fresh off the block kind of employee -

Katie: Exactly.

Esther: - and that's why they're interns, not because they can't do the job.

Katie: Right, exactly.

Esther: That's what makes them interns, so I think - I mean for us, we've hired MBA candidates and those are not - those people get paid and they get paid well.

Katie: Okay, excellent.

Esther: So I mean if you're an MBA student, usually you're getting paid. I mean I can't imagine and MBA student taking an unpaid internship.

Katie: Well, but it's tricky because nowadays, I mean even the most qualified seasoned veteran in an industry is having a hard time getting a job and so these unpaid internships, people are fighting for them.

Esther: Right, and as the article says, a lot of the work that they're ending up doing is menial work, it's labor.

Katie: Oh my gosh, yeah.

Esther: An Ivy Leaguer student said that she spent an unpaid three-month interning at a magazine packaging and shipping 20 to 40 apparel samples of data fashion houses. That's insane!

Katie: That's really boring. (Laughter)

Esther: That's boring and useless. That is not a way to learn how to be in the magazine industry.

Katie: Exactly, exactly. So, take a look at this article in the New York Times. They actually have some of the criteria that you can legally have an unpaid intern. Basically they say, "Your internship program should not be similar to the training given to a vocational school student or an academic institution. You're interns also do not displace regular paid workers. And also, and this is an interesting one. As an employer, you can't derive any immediate advantage from an intern's activities.

Esther: Really?

Katie: So basically , if you're having unpaid interns do billable work for you, that is illegal and the Labor Department is really cracking down on it now.

Esther: Oh wow. Oh my gosh.

Katie: So beware!

Esther: Well why do we pay our interns?

Katie: Beware! Yeah, me too. (Laughter) So, there was some other interesting news from AT&T and that advertising agency.

Esther: Yeah you know, AT&T's kind of been embroiled in this battle with Verizon. They been kind of trying to out-advertise each other and just - they're getting down right dirty.

Katie: They're being nasty!

Esther: They're being pretty nasty.

Katie: It's like political slander ads.

Esther: Poking fun each other, yeah.

Katie: Like it's dirty.

Esther: It's pretty mean. And I think AT&T's just finally said, "You know what? Enough is enough." And they've come up with this new slogan that's called "Rethink Possible". Everything you see from AT&T from here out's gonna be Rethink Possible. They really, really wanna do is they wanna leave this whole telecommunications industry behind -

Katie: Yeah.

Esther: - the whole thing, but they're like a company that does landlines and does -

Katie: Right. Just voice services; yeah, yeah.

Esther: - you know, telecom, voice services, right. What they really wanna be is an innovation company. So Rethink Possible is a very HP, very Apple strategy -

Katie: It is.

Esther: - where this is going to allow them to eventually branch into a whole lot of different industries. Hopefully, that's their plan I'm sure.

Katie: Exactly. Well, and I mean, what good timing is this and I'm sure it's not by any accident. This year, 2010, AT&T and Apple are no longer gonna have that exclusive iPhone agreement.

Esther: Verizon's about to get that iPhone.

Katie: Yes! So yeah, they'd better Rethink Possible. (Laughter)

Esther: Absolutely!

Katie: And it's scary because 2009 was a banner year for AT&T. They gained 7.3 million wireless subscribers and actually had the best company end of report ever. But I mean they're obviously feeling, you know, the fact that I think 70 percent of their annual revenue comes from iPhone sales, iPhone services, and I mean I would be quakin', so they are moving. They are moving with a tease.

Esther: Yeah. They've definitely recognized that the conversation's really been dominated by this talk of competition between Verizon and Apple instead of the value proposition that they have.

Katie: Yes.

Esther: You know, what they offer to the consumer. That's really what they need to get back to and I think they finally said, "You know what, enough is enough. We're done with this, we really don't care anymore. Verizon, do what you gotta do. You're getting an iPhone, we have an iPhone," -

Katie: Whoo, whoo!

Esther: - "we're all gonna - we're gonna compete on value instead of competing on who sucks, you suck, we're better."

Katie: Exactly. You're coverage is spotty! (Laughter)

Esther: Right, I mean because let's be honest. AT&T has some pretty freakin' spotty coverage -

Katie: Yeah they do! (Laughter)

Esther: - so they better figure something out quick, because once Verizon gets that iPhone, I'm just saying, I'm -

Katie: It's all different, it's all changed.

Esther: Op, we have a visitor.

Katie: Oh my gosh!

Esther: The wonderful, interactive director of The BusinessMakers Show, Kelsey Ruger.

Kelsey: Hello!

Esther: So what else is going on in the business world?

Katie: Well, this is one of our favorite segments of the show, the CEOs say the darndest things.

Esther: We love it.

Katie: We do because they really, really, really do; and this is actually a happy positive one that I'm really proud of. So the new Xerox CEO, Ursula Burns, had a great quote in the New York Times where she's actually talking, and this from a presentation that she was doing for her entire company where she was really kind of kicking things off. You know, trying to just get everyone in passion and fired up for this new era of Xerox. And in it, she actually talks a lot about one of the problems. The biggest problems that Xerox, which is something that she calls "terminal niceness".

Esther: Wow.

Katie: So she says that a major aspect of Xerox's company culture is that everyone is really, really, really nice, and that's a quote. (Laughter) So she says that maybe the Xerox family should start acting more like a real family. She goes on to say, "When we're in the family, you don't have to be as nice as you were when you're outside of the family. I want us to stay civil and kind, but we have to be frank, and the reason we can be frank is because we're all in the same family."

Esther: That's a great quote.

Katie: It is a great quote; and this woman, I don't know if you've gotten to know much of her story, but she started I think around 1980 in the company as like a lowly personal assistant, way down on the totem pole.

Esther: I love those stories!

Katie: And because she was such a hard worker, she was really outspoken, and was so passionate about just the family, the company growing and doing right to their customers, she rose up in the ranks rapidly and now, not only is the very first African-American CEO of a major corporation, but she's also the very first female CEO that followed another female CEO.

Esther: Wow, yeah.

Katie: Does that make sense? She's the first number two CEO -

Esther: Amazing.

Katie: - in a row for a major corporation.

Esther: That's really cool.

Katie: She's bad ass, I'm sorry. (Laughter)

Esther: That takes a lot.

Katie: It does.

Esther: I mean I actually read a study recently that was an entrepreneurial study. When we talked about "Are CEOs Born or Made".

Katie: Ooooo, I love that one, from a few week ago.

Esther: Yeah, and it basically was talking about how many CEOs rose up through the ranks and there's actually a large percentage of Fortune 500 CEOs that started at the very bottom and didn't have Ivy League educations -

Katie: Exactly.

Esther: - who are college educated, but are not Ivey League, or not from Penn, they're not from Duke, they're not from, you know, Harvard Business. They are literally - started hauling boxes or they started, you know, answering phone calls. They've been through every department of this company so they know it inside and out, and that really does make a huge difference.

Katie: Yes, absolutely.

Esther: It's amazing. It's a great story.

Katie: S yeah, we love those stories. (Laughter)

Esther: Well I guess that wraps up our business week in review, but we've got an awesome segment too coming up.

Katie: We absolutely do. Definitely stay tuned. We have a great interview with the gentlemen from Primer Grey.

Esther: One of the up and coming marketing firms in the country.

Katie: Absolutely. They are blowing up a web design and marketing firm who is actually generously hosting us. We are sitting on top of their really awesome warehouse loft where I think Esther and I just sort of move in. (Laughter)

Esther: Oh we have so many pictures. I might sleep here.

Katie: They won't notice, it's a big place.

Esther: They won't notice. There's several floors and it's phenomenal what they've done with this space, but you'll see it. Go check our Facebook page, Facebook.com/theBusinessMakers and Facebook.com/OvertimeShow. You'll see all the pictures there.

Katie: Exactly, exactly. So we can't wait for you to hear what they've gotta say and we'll see you in Chapter 2.