Katie: Welcome back to the BusinessMakers Overtime Show. We're here in Section Numero Tres, where we're gonna be talking about interesting brands that affected our lives in good, bad, and awesome ways. And then Miss Esther's gonna give us the lowdown on Las Vegas for business types, the myths, the reality, the good, and the bad. So, Kelsey, let's talk about brands. What is a brand?

Kelsey: It's one of those things that they use in West Texas to make sure that the cattle are stamped. That's what you're talking about, right?

Katie: No, that's exactly what I'm talking about. Wherever you're reading in-flight magazine and you learn that you can get your initials on a brand to put on your steak in the barbeque. (Laugh)

Kelsey: Really?

Katie: They sell those –

Kelsey: Have you ever bought anything from that magazine?

Katie: No. Although, I've kind of wanted to, but that's usually on an overseas flight after three glasses of wine. (Laugh)

Kelsey: (Laugh)

Katie: So, brands. What do you think? What's been big in your world?

Kelsey: It's interesting on that list that we looked at earlier, it's really big brands. But one of the brands that I think, especially in our space, that has done an excellent job in the past year is Zappos.

Katie: Zappos is awesome.

Kelsey: They have done really good job with their not only what we see externally, but apparently what they're doing internally, because it's not just the executive saying, "We have a great brand," it's the employees, which makes a really big difference.

Katie: Exactly. Oh, it really does. What do you think about Amazon getting in on the Zappos love? Are you worried? Do you think it's gonna change anything?

Kelsey: You can never tell. Whatever happens, happens, and you hope for the best when the two brands merge. But I don't really think they're merging.

Katie: They're not.

Kelsey: Zappos is staying independent.

Katie: They're staying independent and, I mean – yeah. So it's gonna be an interesting relationship. It's not like they're just sucking 'em in and gonna suck 'em dry of all their love and personality. (Laugh)

Kelsey: Yeah.

Katie: But, I mean, for all that we talk about Zappos, how many pairs of shoes have you bought from them in the last year?

Kelsey: None.

Katie: Okay.

Kelsey: But I could always ask my wife.

Katie: Oh. (Laugh)

Kelsey: She may have bought something.

Katie: So, I mean, I just sometimes wonder because when you're out there in the shoe world, especially if you're shopping online, there are a lot of cheaper places to get shoes than Zappos.

Kelsey: Well, first of all, shoes, I usually like to go and try on.

Katie: Okay. That's true.

Kelsey: Like, maybe if it were, especially for me, clothing, because I have to go out and shop for different sizes than most people.

Katie: Okay.

Kelsey: Than 99 percent of people.

Katie: You're kind of tall.

Kelsey: Yeah. Yeah, I really am.

Katie: (Laugh) Or I'm really short.

Kelsey: And I always look online because I can get the sizes that I'm looking for that they don't usually carry in the store.

Katie: Oh, okay, okay.

Kelsey: But shoes?

Katie: Shoes are tricky 'cause even from color to color, even if you're wearing the exact – I mean, it's hard to know even with the exact same shoe.

Kelsey: Yeah. That is true.

Katie: Or maybe that's a girl thing. I don't know. Yeah. I think the brands that have had the most impact on me, much like Zappos, are the ones that let me interact either mobily, so on either my iPhone or – I just recently got that. I used to have a Helio now version Ocean. So anything that would let me do stuff on the go or just companies that play nice on the Web. So, I mean, looking at one brand that's completely impacted my life Mint, mint.com.

Kelsey: Yes.

Katie: As far as a personal finance system goes. And, of course, this was recently purchased by Intuit, and I'm a little nervous 'cause I've always loved Mint's feisty rebel spirit versus big, giant Intuit. A little nervous about how that's gonna go. But, I mean, they have completely changed the way that I look at my finances, helped me stay on budget, have give me – proactively shown me different options to say money on credit cards and electricity bills. I love them for it. Like, I am a raving fan of mint.com.

Kelsey: So you think the – sort of the proliferation of different media has changed the reach or the power that super brands can have? I really think brand loyalty is really becoming niche as well. You're not gonna see as many giant super brands that can really dominate everything.

Katie: Yeah. But, I mean, if any company has the resources to do so – I mean, it seems like the biggies would.

Kelsey: The biggies would. It's kinda like when we looked at that list. I looked at the list and I said, "I don't know that I would personally order it that way."

Katie: Right.

Kelsey: The list seems to be based on revenue or income, whereas I think personally brands are a little bit more emotional to me. So what has the emotional connection for you?

Katie: I totally agree. Have you ever been on the Web site or read the book Love Marks, lovemarks.com?

Kelsey: No.

Katie: It's an entire Web site – what is it, Sachi and Sachi, the advertising company? They run this big, big project, and it's all about making brands. They're not just brands, but they are – and I quote, "Love marks." Everyone has a story, an emotional relationship. And what they do is they have different people come and tell their stories about why they Vespa, why their iPhone means so much to them, like, what role does this brand and this company product play in their lives that make them return customers. And, I mean, speaking of the big, big dogs, looking back on the financial sector, I bank at Chase, and I gotta say, Chase is doing awesome stuff with their iPhone apps as well. I mean, they make it so easy for me to – I mean, I can do anything that I want to with my accounts, pay my bills, do this, do that. What kinds of businesses do you see have the most success with doing, like, mobile outreach, whether it's an iPhone app, or just being awesome with, like, a mobile site or just being nice to people on the go?

Kelsey: I said this to someone a couple a days ago. When you build an iPhone app or a mobile app, you gotta really think about users and the situation in which they would be using that mobile app.

Katie: Right.

Kelsey: Right? So you build an iPhone app, I would be you have 30 seconds for that person to figure out if they like it or not.

Katie: True.

Kelsey: And if they don't like it, they probably won't use it again. It's so easy – people will throw away an iPhone app. They just paid a $1.00 for it. They'll throw it away. And it's –

Katie: Yeah. It's taking up real estate. (Laugh)

Kelsey: Right. So I think you really have to pick something that engages, that's useful. Or addictive. One of the things that Stephen Anderson talked about at Interactive Strategies is how businesses can use game theory to really get people to buy into what they're doing because people like lists, right? Like, they like these leader boards that we create for them where they can move up and down.

Katie: Right.

Kelsey: And they can compare themselves to Katie.

Katie: That's kinda cool. And I always like to think about, like, the sense of play when you do business in general. So, I mean, the fact that we're actually looking at tried and true game theory, I mean, that's an interesting idea. So what else? What other brands are rocking your world?

Kelsey: I actually really, really like going to Target.

Katie: It's a happy place and inexpensive place. (Laugh)

Kelsey: Yeah. It's it – I find myself – I keep a design journal, and I find myself taking pictures of different things that I'll see in the store, just so I can make note of things that I like or things that I don't like.

Katie: Yeah. And, I mean, Target's an interesting company in that they work with a lot of different brands. I mean, they have these designers come in and, I mean, they have these featured – I mean, of course, they're a little bit smaller than the Target brand, but I love how they incorporate so many other brands into the Target brand.

Kelsey: Yep.

Katie: It's just fascinating to me. So that's why every time I go in, there's always something new, always something very unique and very interesting from the time that I went in a week ago.

Kelsey: In fact, if you go to target.com/designers, they actually profile all the designers. So it's called Design for All, and they talk about the featured designers, clothing designer.

Katie: That's awesome.

Kelsey: They have 'em all on the so, Michael Graves is there.

Katie: Yay.

Kelsey: A bunch of the other people.

Katie: Hey, Isaac Mizrahi. (Laugh) And just the thought that they make a lot of those designers so much more accessible. 'Cause I can't afford to spend $500.00 on a pair of shoes at this point in my life.

Kelsey: Yep.

Katie: But I can get something that – it's not even a knockoff, because it's actually the designer, but it's taking it down a notch. So, yeah, Target is pretty awesome.

Kelsey: Well, generally, I'll walk into a store. I look at the design of bottles. I look at the design of cups, silverware, everything. Like, I look at it and I figure that's the best way to really acquaint yourself with – and that really isn't about brand.

Katie: No.

Kelsey: But there are some brands that really have built their brand by having good design, like XO.

Katie: Right.

Kelsey: Everyone loves their stuff.

Katie: Oh, man, yeah, yeah.

Kelsey: And they actually didn't start out to be visually appealing. They started out because the design was easier for people with problems holding silverware to hold in their hand.

Katie: No way.

Kelsey: Yeah.

Katie: Really?

Kelsey: That happens a lot.

Katie: That's so cool.

Kelsey: Like, a lot of things that we think are just done, are actually done to make the designs more universal and then it just happens that everybody can utilize that. So it goes to show you that when you really think about design, it can help people, and your brand. Design is such a broad topic. Like John and I'll talk about sound engineering all the time, like, different things that he can hear because he does it all the time that most people don't know they appreciate. And a lot of times when you hear a record, it's not just the words in the song, it's how clear the song is to you that actually helps you latch onto it. So that's really cool. Design's everywhere.

Katie: Design is everywhere. One of my favorite books is The Design of Everyday Things. You've read that, right?

Kelsey: Mm-mhmm, yes.

Katie: And, I mean, basically, the book's looking at, I mean, everything from the way that doors open and close, to elevators, to teapots, to absolutely everything, and how so much thought has, hopefully, gone into the designing these things. The biggest message that I got from that books is the fact that whenever things don't work the way that we think that they're going to work, it makes us feel stupid. Like, everybody's had that experience where they're trying to get into the mall and they can't figure out how to open the damn door. (Laugh)

Kelsey: Yep.

Katie: Do you push? Do you pull? Is this one locked? Is it not locked? And, of course, the four-year-old next to you just walks in just fine and then you feel like a total moron. But, I mean, that goes for so much, whether it's Web sites, anything.

Kelsey: And Donald Norman says – he says that when things happen like that, it's not a user error.

Katie: No, it's not. It's the designer's.

Kelsey: It's poor design.

Katie: It's – yeah. And it's terrible to make people feel that way, like they put it on themselves. So yeah, interesting lessons. And, I mean, just I think that that could go for so much in regular business stuff.

Kelsey: There is a site called The Personal MBA. Have you ever heard of that?

Katie: No.

Kelsey: So The Personal MBA is a site that has a list of books that if you wanna learn some of the things that they learn in business school, this guy has put together a list. And, interestingly, that book is on this list.

Katie: Really?

Kelsey: It's not just a list of business books. There are some books that are related to taking your business knowledge and understanding who you apply it to people.

Katie: Right, right. So taking more of a comprehensive approach. That's really neat.

Kelsey: Yep.

Katie: So we're moving from well-designed doors in shopping malls to an actually pretty cool designed city, Las Vegas, as Miss Esther Steinfeld fills us in on the dos and the don'ts of the favorite Sin City of us all, Las Vegas.

Esther: Thanks, Katie. So while I was in Las Vegas, my CEO/father, blind.com, CMO, Daniel, and I, took a tour of the ever-famous Zappos. We drove away from Mandalay Bay in a giant decaled Zappos bus, and got some major highway, and it looked a lot like the one I drive to work on every day. Once we got there, I was pretty surprised to find a regular-looking two-story office build. And, okay, yes, inside, the place looks crazy. Jungle vines and monkeys hang over CEO, Tony Hsieh's, cube, and yes, he does have a cube in the pit.

One department hangs mullet wigs like a curtain because they consider themselves business in the front, party in the back. It's kinda weird. In accounting, they shake maracas at you as you walk by. They even named each conference room after a famous Vegas figure. But what ever you think about Zappos and their culture, which, by the way, is great in a kitschy kinda way, they operate completely independently of the Vegas stereotypes. There are tons of things that people assume about Vegas as it relates to business, and I actually wanna talk about some of those with you right now. There's some things that you should and shouldn't do, and some things that you need to know about going to Vegas when you're going for work.

First, people who go to Vegas for conferences are not all degenerate gamblers looking ladies of the evening. I, for one, was asleep by 11:00 every night and I think, well, mostly anyway, people actually do go there to get some work done, learn things, network. It's not all fun and games all the time, though it still is pretty fun.

The second thing is that some people who go to Vegas for business are degenerate gamblers looking for ladies of the evening. And inevitably, some of those nice people you met the first day of the conference will not be showing up the next day. In fact, look for them at the poker table as you're walking to the conference for your bagel and schmear at 8:00 a.m. You will probably find them there.

Third, vendors really do throw some ridiculous parties and spend a pretty penny doing it. I had lunch with my friend, Jeremiah Andrich, while I was there, and he told me of one such party he helped through for an Internet behemoth he used to work for. The cost of the party along would keep me in shoes and tasty delight for the entirety of my life. The company even picked up the tab for the after party. That's pretty awesome. They know what co-host, Katie, and I learned last week on our show. Business and booze totally mix.

John: Well that wraps up another BusinessMakers Overtime be sure to check out next Wednesday's show when Esther and Katie talk about more fun and exciting stuff happening in the business world. You can check it out right here and on thebusinessmakers.com.