Katie: Welcome back to The BusinessMakers Overtime Show, heard here and online at thebusinessmakers.com. We're still here, recording live, at the fabulous uptown –

[Applause]

Katie: - The Tasting Room. And I don't know who let this rowdy bunch in, but they're here and we love it. [Laughter]

Esther: Yeah. It's a good group.

Katie: So speaking of getting a little rowdy – I know that the end of the year means that a lotta people are kind of reevaluating where their career is going and I mean, let's just put it plainly. A lot of people take the end of the year to be like, "You know what, 2009, working with you has been great, but I'm outta here. I gotta go."

Esther: That's right. That's right.

Katie: Which is okay. I mean like it's understandable, psychologically. You got a fresh new year; you wanna have a fresh new start. So Esther, let's talk a little bit today about what people can do to actually leave on graceful terms.

Esther: Oh good terms.

Katie: To – on good terms –

Esther: Yeah.

Katie: - gracefully and so that it's really a win-win for everybody involved.

Esther: You know, I was mentioning to you earlier when we – when you brought this topic up. I think it's a great topic because I'll go to someone's holiday party and I'll say, "Oh, what happened to so and so?" and they'll go, "Umm, shh! Don't mention her name," or "Don't talk about it, you know, it ended badly."

Katie: I know that face. Yeah.

Esther: And I just think that's sad. There's gotta be a better way. You know, there's got to be better ways to leave without making enemies.

Katie: Right. And I mean, of course, different situations; like sometimes there's just no way that you can get out something gracefully –

Esther: Right.

Katie: - I mean there are some messy endings but I think for the most part by being really open and not making – you leaving a company – not making that like some dirty, awful secret thing that everyone's gonna hate you for forever because we're all friends. We're all in it together, Esther, like – [Laughter]

Esther: Yeah. No I think that's a really good point, you know? You brought up a really good example of how to leave on really good terms.

Katie: Absolutely. So there's this feisty lady named Paula Berg, who currently – and I say currently because very shortly she will no longer be with Southwest Airlines. Now Paula's been working, heading up their online communications teams, so doing all their social media marketing, their interactive strategies – for ten years at Southwest Airlines. And so recently, she decided it was time to just move on to another chapter in her life. Like fair enough. She's done a great job; loves the place and the people she works with. So she did something that I've never, ever seen before in my life. She wrote a love letter to Southwest Airlines talking about all of the reasons that she loves working for Southwest Airlines. And not just like a top ten. She has 68 reasons. They are numbered – count them – six eight reasons why it was wonderful to work at Southwest and –

Esther: And they're very specific.

Katie: And they are very, very specific. For example, number one why Paula Berg loves Southwest – she has a video that she took of driving through a puddle. There's a puddle that she has to drive through every single day whenever it rains to get to her office and that was her first reason of wanting to work at Southwest Airlines.

Esther: You know you – those are the things you miss.

Katie: It's just the little things.

Esther: You miss that puddle.

Katie: The little – the little puddles that, you know, they – Southwest Airlines has a choir that practices in the room next to her office. She misses them, you know, they have these amazing email chains throughout the company. You know, the different parties that they have going on.

Esther: They have a choir.

Katie: Exac- yeah. Southwest Airlines Choir.

Esther: I'm – I'm stuck on the choir now.

Katie: Yeah.

Esther: Southwest Airlines has a choir?

Katie: Yeah [Laughter]

Esther: Hmm.

Katie: So it's everything from the little things like that to the eight percent 401k match to the best corporate blog three years running, according to PR News. I mean what a wonderful way, not just to leave a company and open this amazing position for someone else that knows what their – with their eyes wide open, what they're getting in for, the great stuff ahead – but also for her future employer, seeing what an amazing job she did leaving. Like, who wouldn't be excited –

Esther: Exactly.

Katie: - to hire somebody like that. If you're that happy leaving a company, how are you gonna be when you're there and you're coming in? I think that's just so beautifully done.

Esther: It just speaks volumes about Southwest and their culture.

Katie: Exactly – and Paula, too.

Esther: So we actually have some suggestions for you if you're thinking about leaving your job. And you know, the thing is a lot less people are leaving their jobs this year, probably –

Katie: That's true.

Esther: - but that doesn't mean people aren't.

Katie: Absolutely.

Esther: So we have some really important things that you should remember. You should – things you should do and things you should definitely not do.

Katie: Do not.

Esther: Yeah. We've seen a lot of bad situations and –

Katie: Bad exits.

Esther: - you know, we have some knowledge about this.

Katie: Exactly.

Esther: Katie, what do you think's the main things you should do?

Katie: So reason number one may seem obvious, but it's something that I've experienced and it's been terrible. Give your notice when you're leaving in person. Don't text it. Don't email it. Don't change your status on Facebook, you know, your job profile or Linked In before you tell your boss. Please, do the right thing and you know, make it a face-to-face conversation, you know? It doesn't need to be something where you're locked away at home on a weekend after seven bottles of wine and you made this big decision. Like, make it in your boss' office so that they have a chance to talk to you. Everyone can feel good, because bosses are people too. [Laughter]

Esther: Right. And they're – you're not the only one they're managing.

Katie: Exactly. Exactly. So do it right and do it face to face.

Esther: So also, you should really just be very candid with your reason.

Katie: Yes.

Esther: You don't need to get emotional. You don't need to cry. You don't need to scream and yell. Just be honest. Explain why – be constructive. Being constructive is the main thing. You don't want to go in and point fingers at your boss and explain that he's the reason you're leaving and your mean co-worker's the reason you're leaving or he said this or she said this. Really just be constructive. What can they do for the next person who's going to take your position?

Katie: Exactly. So just keep it at a professional level. Especially because chances are if you're quitting, you probably want a letter of recommendation.

Esther: Right.

Katie: So on many levels, you really want to make that exit interview or that initial, "Hey I'm leaving – giving my two weeks," you want to make that go smoothly. [Laughter]

Esther: Right. Right.

Katie: So yeah. So I know that a lot of people have this idea in their mind that two weeks' notice, you know, is definitely standard for a job and I think for most positions, it really is but another tip whenever you're considering quitting is to look at your employment document. So your hiring document may actually say that you need to give three weeks or you only get one week once you put in notice. So make sure that you're covering all that paperwork that you've been signing so that you are covered, no matter what.

Esther: Right. That's very important and also I think it's important to be clear and organized when you're transitioning responsibilities because what's going to happen is if you don't do a good job of this, you're gonna have some very angry co-workers or ex-coworkers –

Katie: Oh yeah.

Esther: - the week after you're gone and they've got to email you and ask you, "Well what does this client want?" "How does the boss want this done? I don't even know."

Katie: You should be very clear with what their responsibilities are and the expectations for that responsibility.

Katie: Exactly. Pass the baton. [Laughter]

Esther: Yeah.

Katie: So hopefully the way that you're filing and organizing all of your content is understandable enough so that even when you're out of the equation, you know, because things happen. You may get in an accident, be in the hospital, your kid is sick, there's a big deadline. You know, you need to make sure that you're covering all your fellow co-workers' backs anyway, but especially when you're leaving.

Esther: Exactly.

Katie: You have to make sure that they are cool. [Laughter]

Esther: So what about some of the things you shouldn't do?

Katie: Okay. So do not be wishy-washy. If you have given your notice to your boss, do not change your mind randomly two days later, you know, once the seven bottle of wine hangover's gone and be like – [Laughter]

Esther: It's a breakup, isn't it?

Katie: It is. It's like no –

Esther: I shouldn'ta done that.

Katie: - just cut the cord. Just cut it. Just cut it.

Esther: I love you.

Katie: Yeah, exactly. It just doesn't go over so well with your CEO. It really doesn't. Talk about awkward moments.

Esther: I'm so sorry.

Katie: And likewise, if you start a new position and you're like, "I made such a huge mistake," you know, I mean, maybe you have that kind of relationship and maybe your departure, you know, was just so clean and it was just so positive that that's okay to go back, you know, to say, "Hey, I'm really sorry. Let's go back." But chances are probably not. No wishy-washy. No wishy-washy.

Esther: I actually – we have someone here who I'm actually related to, but he is a CEO.

Katie: [Laughter]

Esther: I'd like to hear – he's the CEO of blinds.com. He's my dad. I'd like to know what he has to say. What do you think is the number one thing someone shouldn't do when they're quitting?

Jay: Well, you don't want to burn bridges because when you go to another job, it might be a lot worse than what you thought you were leaving and you might want to come back. In fact you probably do wanna come back and I would make sure you leave the door open to come back. That's probably the number one thing you should do.

Katie: So –

Esther: That's great advice.

Man: Let's hear it for that advice. Yeah!

[Applause]

Katie: Yeah, indeed. Indeed.

Esther: So basically, he's saying if you've ever quit blinds.com, there's a good chance you're gonna wanna come back.

[Laughter]

Esther: I'll keep that in mind. Katie, what else? What are some other good things you should remember not to do?

Katie: So don't take it personally if after you've given notice if people start treating you a little bit differently around the office. I mean, humans are kind of sensitive, delicate creatures and I mean if someone is kind of – I mean effectively, they're sort of cutting themselves out of your life, you're not gonna be like, "Yay, we're still friends, let's have coffee. Oh my God, girl. Guess what?"

Esther: "Let's brainstorm!"

Katie: Yeah, so just keep in mind that people are gonna be a little standoffish but don't go crazy. Don't get mean. Don't get nasty because chances are, if there's an actual friendship relationship there, things are gonna get back to normal.

Esther: Absolutely.

Katie: So give it a few days, give it a few weeks but yeah. Don't be crazy insulted if everyone thinks that they're not wanting to hang out.

Esther: Right. And –

Katie: No one's in the copy room. Weird. [Laughter]

Esther: - there's something else I think is really important to do. It's small but – don't start looking for jobs online. If you've decided you're gonna quit and you don't have a job lined up. Don't start, like, looking up monster.com and careerbuilder.com on company time.

Katie: Oh my gosh.

Esther: Because –

Man: We can tell.

Esther: - we can see that stuff.

Katie: Yeah. It's not that hard.

Esther: We can actually check your browser history quite easily.

Katie: Yes.

Esther: And see that you've been looking up these websites. It looks terrible.

Katie: Yeah.

Esther: If that's what you've been spending your time doing at work. Especially in your last two weeks.

Katie: One final tip that I really like – and this is from you, Esther, actually. Don't quit for the wrong reasons. I mean sometimes, we all get kind of swept up in an emotional day and there's this coworker that, you know, is going through something weird with her boyfriend and you just can't bear to be around her at work. I mean, like, things happen. People are a little crazy. They get a little weird but make sure that you are quitting for the right thing. You know, is it really a fundamental difference between you and your company's values or is your life path just taking you in a completely different direction? You know, just be very, very thoughtful and just don't quit at the drop of a hat.

Esther: Absolutely.

Katie: Because that's just devastating for ya and we, we don't wanna see that. [Laughter]

Esther: No, we want you to be happy.

Katie: Exactly.

Esther: And we wanna help you make your business better and that's why we're here.

Katie: Exactly. Exactly.

Esther: So we hope we've done that this week.

Katie: And we're certainly never gonna quit you, I promise. [Laughter]

Esther: No.

Katie: Now everybody hug.

[Laughter]

Esther: Well I guess that wraps it up for this week.

Katie: It sure does. Thanks for being here.

Esther: And thank you – thanks to Raissa and Jen for being such amazing guests. You guys were phenomenal, of course.

Katie: They have been fantastic, fantastic.

Esther: We're so happy you guys were here with us and PKF is really doing some incredible things and –

Katie: They have.

Esther: - we hope you guys are doing some incredible things at home, too, with your companies.

Katie: Exactly and we wanna know all about them. So tell us. Don't be shy. We're on Twitter at twitter.com/overtimeshow. You can find us on Facebook at facebook.com/thebusinessmakers and of course our favorite spot in the entire Internet, thebusinessmakers.com/overtime. So thanks for listening. I'm Katie Laird –

Esther: And I'm Esther Steinfeld.

Katie: - and we can't wait to see ya next week with The BusinessMakers Overtime.

Esther: Absolutely. You've been listening to The BusinessMakers Overtime Show, heard here and online at thebusinessmakers.com.

[Applause]